Episode #52: Conversations at Base Camp – How to Ask for and Get What You Want
Caneel Joyce:
Hello fearless leaders. Welcome back to Allowed. Today’s episode’s a little different. Last week on the show, we had on Noa Ries and Kim Havens, the two co-founders of Women’s Executive Network Leadership Educational Platform, Kahilla and today, I am going to be sharing with you a separate conversation I had with them on their podcast called Conversations at Base Camp. The topic of this conversation is how to ask for and get what you want. Now, this isn’t something I talk about too often but I used to be a business school professor. One of the key courses I would teach to MBAs and undergrads and executive MBAs is negotiation. The skills and theories around negotiation and how to get what you want. By far the biggest takeaway for me from everything I learned about negotiation in the process of teaching that course and preparing for it, is how rarely people actually even know what they want. How rarely we actually look at the full spectrum of things we might ask for and how we are just so prone to put ourselves in the box of asking for what someone else offers us plus 5% or what we thought we wanted minus 50%… The whole split the difference idea.
So, this podcast is going to be really interesting for you to listen to through the lens of conscious leadership, which is the one that we typically are spending most of our time in here on the show. In this podcast, I’m going to talk about zone of genius and how it relates to how to ask for and get what you want. I’m going to give you some actual strategies for having real life negotiation conversations, so that you can increase the lifetime value in a monetary fashion but also in many other ways of your career.
Now how this relates to last week’s episode, where I was actually talking with the co-founders of Kahilla here on Allowed, is that the two of them have been very masterful in my experience, of identifying what they want and not being afraid to ask for it and stand for it and say, “No,” to what they don’t want and in fact the way that they designed their own business, very much stemmed from each of them on their own sitting down and saying, “What do I want for myself and my own life now that I am a mother who’s now establishing my professional career?” So, if you have not yet heard that episode, I encourage you at some point to go back and listen to that one as well, so you can hear the back story behind Kahilla. Without further adieu, here is How to ask for and get what you want.
Kim Havens:
Welcome everyone. So good to have you here. So, today’s conversation… Are you asking for what you really want or are you asking only what you think you can get? I know that is a big thing to think about. Dr. Caneel Joyce joins us to share her insights and tips on how to reach for and achieve your dreams by getting answers to the questions you didn’t even know you were allowed to ask.
Caneel Joyce:
Hello everyone. Thank you so much for being here today.
Noa Ries:
And thanks for your patience, yes. So, for more information about Caneel, please do head back to the platform but you’ll hear from her now. So, usually it’s not a straight line to where we are today. Usually there’s some zigs, some zags in the path on the way to today. We like to start at the beginning. Tell us how did you get to where you are today? You’ve had a windy path from actress, to start-up, to PHD… Tell us. Tell us what-
Caneel Joyce:
What am I doing? Basically… Yeah, it’s one of those things in retrospect, I think, one’s life and career makes a lot more sense than it seems like when you’re in the middle of it or at least in the quarter of it. I’d say here in the middle, I feel more on purpose and I know what I’m doing and I feel so much more connected to my inner intuition about what my path is and I fully expect my path to keep changing. So, as you mentioned Noa, I’ve had many lives. I’ve also, in addition to the jobs you’ve mentioned, being a professor… business school professor, being an actress, being a start-up executive, start-up leader, marketing manager, agency person, I also have been a bartender, a waitress… Well, I’ve done catering of course because I was an actress and I’ve sold sandwiches on the beach in Barcelona and the day that I did that, unfortunately I didn’t know, my husband and I went out to do it to make some spare change while we were living out there, in addition to our education consulting company that we started and unfortunately it was the day of the International Food Festival. So, we didn’t sell a lot of sandwiches but we ate a lot of bread and broke our Atkins diet.
So, how did I get where I am today? I think long story short… First I pushed really hard against who I am and what my innate gifts are. After acting, it was clear to me that if I wanted to keep acting, I was going to need to keep dieting and I just reached a point in my early twenties and I saw what that was going to look like and I decided I didn’t want to do that to myself anymore. It just wasn’t healthy for me but I use acting everyday and everything I learned in getting to know a character, I use now in mu coaching practice as well, because it’s all about me getting inside of your head and your heart… But after that didn’t work out, I really was desperately trying to figure out what’s the job for me that blends together all the different things I love? And I remember showing my parents a list one day of the things I wanted my job to include and it included things as far-ranging as gardening and cooking and psychology and writing and they were looking at me like, “You just got yo get a job.”
But today, I actually do… I actually do get to do all of those things. Sometimes I garden while I coach, but I had to go through this really painful process of doing what I might call the wrong jobs for me, to be able to land here. So, while I was getting my PHD, which was my big attempt to prove to the world that I was a credible human being, even though I was 25 years old, I developed just crippling back pain and it’s actually pretty common, at least amongst my fellow students at the Haas Business School at Berkeley for really, really, painful, physical symptoms to show up as you are going through your PHD and most of us complete that program in about 6 years and that’s a long time to be in pain. One of my girlfriends lost feeling in both of her hands while she was trying to type her dissertation.
So, I had really bad back pain, mostly from studying and low self-care and my [inaudible 00:08:30] year journey, which included selling all my furniture, quitting a bunch of my jobs, changing cars and just a lot of soul work honestly, it taught me that my body doesn’t like to sit down. My body doesn’t like to do that job of being a professor and to sit doing research and crunching data all of the time. I love doing it but if I’m honest with myself, I never was that great at it. I was good enough to get through and I used my [inaudible 00:09:08] intuition, which is more my start-up skills to actually make it and get a professor job.
Once I kept just learning to listen, to listen, to listen to my pain and listen to my body and I prioritized it, I was able to start walking again and my career gradually got adjusted to one that fit my body and at that time I thought it was just about my body speaking up. Now I realize, I think a lot of the pain also came from the tension I was holding because I was living in my zone of excellence and I was not living in my zone of genius. It was effortful for me. It wasn’t my flowy, happy place that keeps me vibrant and alive. So, that’s the real story. [crosstalk 00:09:54]-
Kim Havens:
Yeah, I love that. It’s-
Caneel Joyce:
-read my CV but that’s the real story.
Kim Havens:
Right. It’s very zig and zag but I love that you realize… It’s too bad that it had to be such a severe physical pain but I think this happens actually to a lot of people. I mean, as you said, you saw it with other PHDs candidates but I think it’s common out there in the bigger world. People carry a lot of physical pain and stress in their bodies and they just manage through that for years and years and are just terrible for us, both mentally and physically. It’s whole.
Noa Ries:
We have a question. Can you elaborate on the two types of zones you mentioned?
Caneel Joyce:
Sure, yeah. So, for those who aren’t familiar with this concept, it’s not my concept. It’s one that I use a ton and if you want, I can out together a post where I can add some links and I’ll put it up on the platform so you guys can get books and things like that, that I like on this topic… But there’re basically four zones of being and I only name two. So, the first zone is the zone of incompetence and that’s the place where we don’t like what we’re doing, we’re not naturally good at it, we’re not adding value. In fact, we’re probably subtracting value, where it’s just painful for everyone. The Zone of competence… These are things that you get by, you’re fine at them. For a lot of us this includes things like paying our bill, paying a utility bill. It’s not like I’m earning big gold stars but I can do it and I don’t hate it. Most of the time I don’t mess it up.
The Zone of excellence. This is a zone that I believe most high achievers are living in most of the time and the reason for that is we were trained to. So, here’s what the zone of excellence is. In my zone of excellence, I am doing something that I’m really good. I’m great at it. I am probably recognized for it and paid for it and rewarded for it. I earn lots of gold starts and a long time ago in school, I learned that gold stars are where it’s at but it’s not something I necessarily am naturally gifted in and it’s something that if I keep doing it and doing it in exclusion, I will burn out. I will have anxiety. I won’t feel fulfilled and I won’t understand why because I appear to be so successful. So, these are things we work hard to learnt to be great at and we do really enjoy them but it’s very different from that final zone, the zone of genius and I’m estimating that most of you on this call spend less than half your time currently in your zone of genius and it might be quite a bit lower than that.
So, my invitation for you is to think about right now, what is an activity that you can remember doing where you were effortlessly adding value to the world? This activity itself is life giving for you. You would do it whether or not you got paid. In fact, you probably have paid to do it at one point and you love it that much and this when you’re in a natural state of ease and flow and it brings you right into presence. It may be something really subtle too. It may not be a thing that you would ever list on a resume. It may not me be a position in a company. It may be something like establishing trust through your presence in a room; something subtle like that. So, that’s the zone of genius that I was referencing and so, once we can find our way into that zone, and we can be in our genius, whatever we’re doing, then we are going to experience much great success with a lot more ease. We might at first have judgment about it and think, “It should be harder than this. No one wants to pay for this. This doesn’t even work.” Perfect… You found it and that’s really, really healthy. That’s really healthy.
Kim Havens:
That’s where we all want to live, right, where effortless and I get paid to do this.
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah.
Kim Havens:
And it’s joyful to do it. So, okay, I have a question for you on this asking, getting… the topic today. The asking, getting what you want. What has been a big ask in your life that you’ve made that really shifted and changed your life? Is there something that comes to mind?
Caneel Joyce:
Absolutely. One event in particular comes to mind and it is the one… This is ironic given what I’ve already shared with all of you, it is the one that has most changed my life. So, when I was trying to get into the Berkeley PHD program, I was looking on the website… I applied to several different programs but that’s the one I really wanted to go to and I was looking at the website and it said only 3% of applicants are admitted and what’s the profile of a typical applicant? Well, they typically have a bachelors degree in that area and that was not true of me. I studied mass communication and anthropology at UCLA and then at Berkeley I was in the business school. So, I couldn’t tick that box. Their GPA was probably closer to a 4.0, mine was less. Their GRE scores were a little bit higher than mine and they had research lab experience and I had zero.
Grad school was not on my radar at all while I was at UCLA. So, I knew that I probably wasn’t going to get in based solely on that… Of course your essay matters and your life story and your experience but there were some pretty big boxes I needed to tick and I asked myself, “What would Roy do?” Roy is my husband and some of our friends actually have an acronym, WWRD, what-would-Roy-do and it’s a really good question and I thought well what Roy would do is he would walk into one of those professors offices and he would ask to be on her research lab team and he would not take no for an answer and he wouldn’t leave until she said yes… And this was the opposite of anything I would ever, ever do but this was 2003, in the Bay Area, and I really did not like the company I was working at. I really didn’t like my job. I could see no future where me not going and getting a graduate degree was going to get me through the next few years because the economy had completely tanked.
So, I did it. I just dared myself, I did it. I went into [Jennifer Chapman’s 00:16:39] office and she said, “I don’t talk to people. Get out.” Like she’s a big deal and, “I don’t take people into my office ever,” and I’m like, “Okay. Let me just tell you a bit about me,” and so I asked, I got on the research team, I impressed her and that I think is why I got in.
Kim Havens:
That is such a great story and I’ve never heard that from you. Just so you all know, I’ve known Caneel for many years but I’ve never heard that story. I love it.
Noa Ries:
I would hypothesize that Roy in this story is what would a man do for most of us, in general, and Caneel in this story is most women… Sweeping generalization there, I realize but where I’m going with that is what do you think is holding us back… Us being women, because we’re all women on this call, what do you think is holding us back from… the majority of us from asking for what we really want?
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah, good question. Sorry there was some helicopter noise out there.
Noa Ries:
That’s all right. We were speaking with someone in New York yesterday; it were sirens there and… All good.
Caneel Joyce:
Life is happening right now, that’s for sure.
Noa Ries:
Exactly.
Caneel Joyce:
So, I believe the primary thing that’s holding us back are our stories. I also want to name that there is such a thing as systematized oppression and we are living in an oppressive society and we all play our part in that and as women we are one of the oppressed classes and I think it’s really important to name that and to recognize it and as much as I can change who I am, that is true and it is true that if women work together we can begin to create change, but a big piece of it is, I need to be willing to examine my stories and I have a lot of stories about being a woman. I have a lot of stories and a lot of them don’t make me super happy. A lot of them don’t bring me to an empowered place and if I don’t recognize that I am the one who’s actually… Maybe I heard that story somewhere else. I heard that story about me that I’m in the way, that I shouldn’t ask for more, that I should always get a yes because a no would just make me feel so ashamed like, “Oh my gosh. I shouldn’t have asked for that.”
If I heard that story and then I keep telling it to myself, I am not a storyteller and I am the one who’s acting into that role, even as much as I say that I don’t want it to be true. So, my work is to find those stories and question them… And not just question them like, “Is it true? Is it true?” No, I want you to go even further than that and here’s the money question, okay… Am I willing to experience that the opposite of my story is at least as true as my story itself… At least as true. Maybe more true than my story. So, if I look at this story of I shouldn’t go into her office, what’s the opposite of that story? Well, there’s lots of opposites. One of them is, I should go into her office. Another one is, I should go into everybody’s office. Another one is, I should’ve already been in her office. Another one might be, she should come to my office. A lot of different versions and I could argue that any of them is true and why is that? Because it’s just a story, it’s not a fact.
So, facts are just the things I can observe and the stories are all the meaning I make of it… And that’s what holds us back and we have stories about scarcity, about how we were supposed to show up? What’s safe for us? A lot of us have a story if I were to actually feel what I want and feel all the desire, I would be so disappointed and or freaked out and anxious about it and nervous that I would mess it up and it wouldn’t actually happen… Or I’d be so disappointed, it’s not really worth it. So, we forget to even flex the muscle of feeling our desire.
Noa Ries:
Absolutely. I would argue also that we’re so afraid of the possibility of a no, that we don’t even try and yet what’s the worst that can happen? She could’ve just said, “No. I don’t have time for you.” And you would’ve figured out another way, probably, or not. You would’ve figured out a different path… There’d be a different path.
Kim Havens:
On that note, salary comes up as something that a lot of people and a lot of women especially don’t ask for and it’s a huge missed opportunity. Can you talk to us about just your thoughts around that… A lack of asking, even from the very beginning, what you’re missing out on by not, again just trying, to [inaudible 00:21:43] what you believe is your fair and accurate salary in your world?
Caneel Joyce:
Completely. So, salary… It has a fairly predictable trajectory. So, what we do know is that your next salary is driven mostly by your current salary. So, if you think about what does that line look like in your life? If you are asking and you’re getting, say, even $2,000 less each time you negotiate for a job, your line is flatter but if you are steering yourself a little bit more over the course of a lifetime, the delta is huge. So, the earlier we can train our daughters to ask for more, because we don’t do it enough and then we end up feeling frustrated and then we blame everyone else. So, we need to ask for more because there is this trajectory.
It’s also true that it’s much easier to get an increase in salary at moments of career change than it is in the same position, same role. Now, leveling within companies and there’s quite a lot of order to this, it does constrain the results of this a little bit but I think it goes as well with power and promotions. So, we know that in those moments where we are trying to please because we’re thinking that we’re in an interview process but actually we’re in our salary negotiation with our new employer, those are the moments when I think a lot of us feel the most scared like, “Oh, they’re going to think I want too much. They’re going to think I’m pushy. I’ll wait till I get there, prove myself and then I’ll get the raise.” No. Your time to get the raise is when you walk in the door and you’re not going to get it unless you’re willing to walk away. So, this is one of the keys with any kind of negotiation.
In negotiations theory, research, practice, there’s a concept called BATNA, like B-A-T-N-A and it stands for your best alternative to a negotiated agreement… BATNA.
Kim Havens:
Oh, I love that.
Caneel Joyce:
[crosstalk 00:23:53] what’s the best, possible thing that you have… If this current conversation ends in a no, a complete no for you and you lose this opportunity, what’s your best alternative, outside alternative? So, another mistake I see people making if they are wanting to maximize their net worth, their monetary value of their job at any given time, a mistake is thinking that I need to put all my focus on this negotiation and now that I’ve got this job, bird in the hand, and I really want this one, then I’m going to stop applying and stop interviewing. In fact, so in any negotiation, when we’re asking for what we want, the best way to gain power is to go and find a better alternative than your current best alternative. Your power in any negotiation is mathematically equal to the value of your best alternative… And that’s a number that is… It contains also all of this subjective utility of an opportunity, so it includes things like, if for me… And it definitely is, for me flexibility is really, really important. The ability to work in an environment that is pleasing and healthy for my being and my body and my mind… That’s really important. So, I value those things highly and I’m willing to earn less money because that’s not as important to me as the whole picture of all of these. So, if you summarize all of that, that’s what you’re trying to maximize.
Noa Ries:
Do you put a weighted score on all the things that are important to you?
Caneel Joyce:
I have. I have and I know a lot of people do. My brother has crazy spreadsheets. He’s a hedge fund guy but you can add a weighted value to each of the variables that are most important for you and one of the best things to do here is, so for any of the key variables that matter to you… Probably salary is one, position, title, who you’re reporting to, career development. There’s so many different aspects, right? But you want to figure out, what are all of those? And then look at your list and then say, “What’s not on the list? What could I add to the list?” This is helpful not just in you determining the value of any given potential offer, it’s also really helpful in you shaping the conversation in the interview process or in the negotiation, in the conversation and this applies to career stuff, sales stuff, marriage stuff, kids stuff. It applies to all stuff but the more you can do to expand the pie and bring additional elements of the negotiation in, the more opportunities you have to find a win for all solution. So, not just a win, win but a win for all.
I know for me right now, in my negotiations, my kids are my stakeholders and they’re always in my mind and I’m looking for the win for all. What’s a win for them and for me and for my husband and for my client and for my partners and my staff and all of that? So, the win for all is possible because now we can make a bunch of different trade-offs and package and bundle up these variables together and so maybe I’m willing to flex a little bit in this area and you don’t know it. You’re assuming that’s the most important one for me. If I can bring more stuff into the conversation and just have much more transparency than we typically allow ourselves in negotiation, then we can find that thing that both of us are saying, “This is actually more valuable to me as a whole.” And that’s what we want.
Noa Ries:
Yeah, and let’s not forget that as women, we’re also cracking the path wider for women behind us who are coming up behind us so that what’s becoming agitated now becomes normalized five to 10 years from here. I heard an awesome interview with [Busman St. John 00:27:50], who’s now the CMO at Netflix and she is a single mom of an 11 year old and when she was negotiating for, I believe it was her previous job, she did that same thing of what else do I need to be thinking about in this negotiation and she actually negotiated that if she was to be traveling for more than three days, and therefore being away from her daughter, she either had to have a carer paid for or her daughter was coming with her and she negotiated that upfront and her salary, which-
Caneel Joyce:
Amazing.
Noa Ries:
-she was super transparent to a point as well, which I just thought was so awesome.
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah, and that’s another one that’s I think a biggie, is sometimes we want to pretend that our values are different than what they are. We want to look like the things we care about are the salary and the position but in fact what we most care about is something different than that and a lot of us don’t even ask ourselves the question of what do I really want, right?
I mean, I think that’s the big take away, I want everyone going away with here is, are you really, really asking yourself? So, when I’m planning out a negotiation, I’m going to want to look at what’s the amount that I think would be great, I’d be really happy with it? And then there’s a lower value than that, which is what’s the value of my BATNA? So, this would be my walk away point. If it’s lower than this amount, then I’ll walk away and I’ll go and do the BATNA instead, because I’ve already got that but there’s a third level here that most women I’ve worked with do not ever bother to specify or even feel into and that is the champagne popper. That’s the, if you were to be blown away by how amazing this offer was… Blown away, shocked. It’s a champagne popper of an offer and you’re going to want to a host a party when you’re done… On Zoom, whatever, that’s the top level and if you don’t reach high, reach there, then you have no chance of getting it and you want to be anchoring high. You want to be starting at the top.
So, this is a really crazy statistic. The end result of the average negotiation, it is a correlation factor of 0.98 with the initial ask. Not your initial ask, the first initial ask. So, there’s a huge value in being the one to establish what’s called the anchor. The value that anchors the rest of the conversation from that point forward because whoever establishes the anchor, they really own that correlation factor and that’s the greatest likelihood that it’s going to end up close to that factor. Now of course-
Kim Havens:
Okay sure. I would think… You might actually have this data but I believe that it’s often the women actually don’t lead… I mean, a lot of people don’t lead negotiation but we do know that women often don’t even lead with, “This is what I want.” It’s like, “What’s the salary you’re willing to give?” It’s like you’ve put the other person in control. Even if you’re negotiating for yourself as an entrepreneur, same thing. I guess that person might pay for X versus being like, “This is my value. Are you willing to pay for that?”
Caneel Joyce:
Yes, yes. So the best thing that you can hear in response to that ask, a well crafted ask, is no. Hearing no, you have not asked for a big enough thing. You’re leaving value on the table, so you’ve got to be hearing no’s. You’ve got to go out and find some no’s. No, is the beginning of the conversation that leads to the big yes and so we’re looking for that. We’re looking for that breaking point, right? And this is an auctioneering skill as well. They’ll try to bring the audience up to a level where… If there’s not going to be a taker and then you might bring it down and then bring it back up. You want to get to that place where people are just, “I’m not sure anyone’s going to bid on this,” and then someone does, right? Someone always does.
Noa Ries:
So, yes. I believe Caneel is saying that the offer is usually, basically what the anchor is or it’s [crosstalk 00:32:30].
Caneel Joyce:
The end result is highly correlated with the anchor; the initial ask.
Kim Havens:
I can think back to salary negotiations and I can totally see that on both sides, when I threw it out there versus when somebody else [inaudible 00:32:49], “I guess I’d work for that.” And you’re like, “Did I just take that?”
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah, or like, “What are you planning on offering?” Or, “What are people normally make in this position?”
Kim Havens:
Right, which I think that question throws out there all the time.
Caneel Joyce:
Do the research on your own. You might want to know those things but it actually would be better if before you even looked at those kinds of data, you first ask yourself, “What would make this worth it to me? What would make it good for me? What would make it a champagne popper?” Because then you have a much more accurate reflection before you get anchored by what you read of what you actually want. Now, if you’re not willing to hear no, that means your BATNA’s probably really high and it’s time to go and see if you can find a better BATNA but if you’re not willing to hear no because it just crushes you on the inside, that’s such a common experience and it’s a beautiful opportunity for you to begin to check out some stories that you might have around scarcity and your place in the world and what you deserve. It’s not easy work. I mean, there’s no over night fix to that, that’s a lifetimes work, is feeling like you deserve and that you are valuable.
Kim Havens:
Thank you for pointing that out because I would not want people walking away from this conversation and be like, “Shame that they haven’t been asking,” because I think it’s hard. Again, as you said, we’re in a culture that we have not been trained to do this.
Caneel Joyce:
Mm-hmm.
Kim Havens:
That’s really important.
Noa Ries:
We have a whole bunch of questions on this topic, so I don’t want to move on yet. I’m going to get to some of the questions. Can you give some tips about negotiating while you’re in the same position, anything else but having an alternative position in mind?
Caneel Joyce:
Anything else but… Oh yes, absolutely. Yeah, because sometimes there’s not an alternative position for you and you may be topped out for now and you know that these leaders are going to be in place for a long time. So, if a lateral move’s not what you’re even looking for, that’s also possible… Or maybe you’re a manager and you don’t want to keep moving up that manager train and you want to get into an individual contributor role.
So, there’s lots of different ways that you might negotiate out of a position but if you’re in the same position and you want to negotiate and increase the total value of that role for you, some things that you can ask for are of course, time is one of the resources that you’re investing, so what can you do that can help you gain some time? This is a great example of, “I would like you to help me find the child carer.” That’s extremely time consuming work, “So, how about you guys help me do that?” You can ask for some additional assistance, like an EA or a… Something I feel is a big missed opportunity across the board is you can ask for funds so that you can hire a personal EA to help you with your life’s administrative work that happens… The stuff that you’re up at midnight doing, after you’ve already finished all of your other work and you’re like, “This is pretty brain dead,” zone of competence, incompetence kind of stuff, “And I don’t like doing it but it’s got to get done.” A lot of that is outsourceable.
So, you can actually ask for some funds to directly invest in a service… A great one is called Belay, B-E-L-A-Y and that’s a company that has a lot of them are prior full time career people who are now mostly stay-at-home parents and they have skills and they can start as low as five hours a week and there are so many administrative tasks that I have on autopilot essentially that I don’t do for myself and when I do, I mess them up. So, it’s great.
So, that’s one thing is time… Flexibility, investment in your continuing education, mentorship and access to mentorship, time to go and meet with mentors who are in other companies, funding to attend a more wide ranging variety of educational and cultural experiences than maybe you’ve been doing before for networking purposes because one thing we do know, is the diversity of our networks in terms of, not just demographic diversity, which is also part of it but it’s also diversity of the types of topics that you can have conversations with people about. That’s a really big indicator of how valuable your network is going to be for your lifetime.
So, you might want more time to do that, you might want some funding, you might want access and then of course, there’s the perks that we sometimes think we just have to suffer through but you can definitely ask for upgrades to your… When we’re traveling again, you can ask for upgrades on travel that maybe you weren’t asking for. You can ask for a standing desk and you can also ask to be connected with an executive who’s maybe a couple levels higher than you, to act as a sponsor for you. So, this is something that’s really helpful for women. It’s not just mentorship; it’s sponsorship. I’m looking for somebody to champion me, to bring me into meetings and experiences that I wouldn’t otherwise have access and to really advocate for me when I am up for a promotion.
Noa Ries:
Right and what about tips for negotiating. So, how do you fill, “Hello small person,” so that you feel more confidant in being able to ask for those things, if you’re in the same position?
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah, great. One moment. I’m going to do a little negotiation myself… Arrow, it’s time for you to leave this room and you can work outside the door, okay?
Arrow:
Mm-hmm.
Caneel Joyce:
Thanks baby. Please close the door after you, gently. Thanks. All right.
Noa Ries:
It’s 2020 people… October 2020, should I say. We’re well attuned to this now. So, the question was, can you give some tips about negotiating when you’re in the same position? So, how do you get that confidence so that you can go and ask for those things?
Caneel Joyce:
All right. So, for me the easiest is faking it; and-
Kim Havens:
Again, what would Roy do?
Caneel Joyce:
You can fake it into… I’m going to stand up to show you guys this stuff. You can actually fake it into it becoming real and there’s some physiology to this. So, probably a lot of you have heard that when you smile, it actually activates your brain in a way that releases the chemicals that make you feel happy. So, smiling very quickly actually is a happiness drug but the same also goes with posture. So, everyone sitting wherever you’re sitting, just put your shoulders lower and collapse them in like this and just see how that feels and now say, “Give me a million dollars.”
Kim Havens:
Give me a million dollars.
Caneel Joyce:
And now roll them back and hold yourself broadly, even hold your arms out a little bit, away from your body and be really strong in your center, where the gravity is coming straight down through your head, all the way into the ground and really even open up your pelvic floor and feel the girth below you and now take a deep breath… “Give me a million dollars.”
Kim Havens:
I deserve a million dollars.
Caneel Joyce:
I deserve a million dollars. I feel like a million dollars. I don’t care if you give me a million dollars. I don’t need a million dollars. I feel so much more confidant just by adjusting my body posture and the confidence comes not from I think I’m so great. It’s, “I don’t freaking care.” I don’t care if I’m great or not. I feel good in my skin right now because I’m giving myself some space and coincidentally, which is wonderful and great, the broader we hold ourselves… And we know this from [Amy Cuddy’s 00:41:26] work, the broader we hold ourselves, these are actually power positions and we are perceived as more valuable and more powerful, the broader we hold ourselves. So literally, if you’re sitting in an armchair and your arms are in, you are not seen as valuable as if you put your arms out.
Kim Havens:
Take up space.
Caneel Joyce:
Take up space.
Kim Havens:
Yeah.
Caneel Joyce:
Take up space; you deserve it.
Kim Havens:
And sure, if you think of when we were in person, when we will be again but when you see meetings… Just even dinner parties, where you see certain people and it is not always, but often said the men in the room and there are certain people who really take up space physically that really command a lot of attention and confidence. I mean, you can feel they’re very confidant in their body, not just here. I like the mind, body connection you’re talking about.
Noa Ries:
I also want to acknowledge the point that you made of fake it because if you’re going in for a negotiation and you don’t maybe intellectually and emotionally yet really feel that you deserve that promotion or you deserve that salary raise, fake it and keep faking it till you make it. I think, again, that statement of what would Roy do, I think that’s what men do so much of the time, is men fake it and they fake it, they ask for it and they get it and so why not fake it till you make it?
Caneel Joyce:
I mean, part of most of our jobs is actually convincing people to do things, most of us on this call and so it’s not even a trick or a cheat to do this. Actually, you’re getting hired in part because confidence will make you more valuable. You are demonstrating value by doing that. You need to be able to walk into a room when you’re feeling nervous and establish credibility quickly, establish likeability quickly and establish that you’re powerful and that you’re not going to take no for an answer but you don’t need to be pushy about it in order to be grounded in it and strong. So, I think we worry like, “That really wouldn’t be ethical,” or… If you think about it, it’s in everybody’s best interest for them to want to value you more when you feel confidant.
But there’s other things that you can also do. I have actually found that when I used to drive to auditions, I could pump myself up by talking and trying to make my voice sound really confidant, as I told myself really great things about myself. It felt ridiculous at the time. I think I learnt it on a Brian Tracy sales tape or something like that but… It felt ridiculous but it actually really, really worked and so I’ve stuck with that and then I would say confidence is the by-product of the present mind.
So, when we’re present and we’re not in the future, thinking about what’s about to happen, what could happen, what we need to get done, what are they going to say, what are they thinking of me, how’s that going to impact…? We’re not in the future and we’re also not in the past like, “Oh gosh, what did I just say,” or, “I’m trying to remember all the things I planned on saying,” then we’re in the present and the present is just right now, right here with what’s happening, what I can actually observe with my senses… That’s it, and from that place, I am much less concerned about my confidence and I’m much more able to connect to gratitude.
So, a gratitude practice is a fairly full proof, fail-safe way to connect you with that person that you are when you are confidant and to connect with presence.
Noa Ries:
I love that. I never connected gratitude to confidence but it makes perfect sense and it just makes sense, it brings you back to the present moment.
Kim Havens:
Yeah absolutely. This conversation has gone so quickly. We just have a couple more minutes. Let’s see… Where did we want to go from here? There are a couple of questions… So, this links into one of the questions we have from the community but for people who are trying to figure out what they should ask beyond the things that they’ve been… research that they’ve done, when you think you might be selling yourself short, how do you figure that out, beyond just the actual, “Okay, well there’s this range and maybe I’m in that range but I really feel like I’m selling myself short here.” How do you figure that out and then how do you also bring that circle back to your manager? [inaudible 00:46:22].
Caneel Joyce:
So, I really like this concept of the whole body yes… Whole body yes. So, my practice, my commitment to myself is I don’t say yes unless I have a whole body yes. If I don’t have a whole body yes, I have a no. What is a whole body yes? It means that my gut says yes, my body physically feels at ease and my energy’s flowing through me easily, my emotions say yes… Doesn’t mean I’m not scared or any emotion but my emotions are, I’m attracted to this yes and then my head says yes. It makes sense to me. It checks out and I also think there’s a thing about my spirit or my soul says yes. I mean, sometimes you just feel called to do something and you’re not even sure why it might not even make sense to your head but that’s a thing that I actually, personally listen to my spirit’s yes and I let that one veto the rest because that one doesn’t steer me wrong.
But if I don’t feel I have a whole body yes, and the more you practice staying rigorous about this, the quicker you’ll feel it, then I know it’s a no and I get curious about why that is. Now, sometimes I may not have a whole body yes to some element, let’s say of my job. Okay there’s a project I’m on that I don’t like and I’ve thought, “Okay, here’s what’s going on with the job. It’s just this one project and I’m going to see if I can create a different solution here. Maybe there’s a way that I can get creative and look for a win for all solution.” But say that’s not what happens. I’m not able to. I’m still assigned to this project; it’s critical for my role. I might have whole body yes to keeping my job and that’s the higher level whole body yes for me.
So, I think sometimes we can let our focus of attention dwell on the things that are missing or that are wrong and we forget that there’s a bigger reason why we’re here, why we’re doing this thing and maybe it’s not even because you love the job so much; it’s because right now, life is presenting a lot of challenges already and it’s not a good time for you to make a change… Whatever it is but when I feel like I’m leaving value on the table, I’m going to feel it in that way. I’m not going to feel the whole body yes and when that happens, you can always ask for some time to just… Even like, “Give me a few seconds. Something’s coming up for me; I just want to check this out and make sure that I’m really clear.” You can ask to sleep on it. You can say, “I’d like to get back to you in two weeks.” You can say, “I need some time to think about this. I’m not sure exactly when I’ll have an answer but if you’d like to come back and check in and see where I am with it at some point,” or, “If your timeline changes and you need me to answer more quickly, let me know, but right now, I’m not quite a yes right now and I’m going to go figure out what a yes would look like.”
So, whenever we have a no, we always have a yes to something. We just need to figure out what the yes is, right? So, the other thing is, is that power structures like to present us with boxes. If you’re designing a complex organization, of course you need to put structure in place. It’s what makes it work. However, there are timelines and there are time lines and sometimes you don’t have a whole body yes to waiting for the next official opportunity where requests are allowed and you know that if that were to happen, your work quality would suffer, your home life would suffer… Whatever the thing is… Your body. So, in those cases, you can always ask for, “Can we have a conversation about this now. Actually, I do need to get this resolved sooner and here’s when.” But when we’re not specific and we’re not creating clear agreements and we let things keep just lingering, then maybe the opportunity doesn’t ever come around but we can always create new conversations and we can always go back and re-negotiate agreements that have already been sealed. We can always re-negotiate.
Noa Ries:
I think also you mentioned, and it’s an answer to one of the questions, what happens when my current employer doesn’t offer me anything that I want. You have the ability to think about it, one, take the time, two and three, I would say also figure out what a yes would look like for you. You don’t have to wait until you’re offered it. The whole point of today’s conversation is how to ask for what you want and so using those tactics that you mentioned earlier and some of the strategies you mentioned earlier, would be, I guess, some ways to get to what you want, is to ask for it.
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah and really guys, I’m not giving you any guaranteed ways to secure what you want. Make no mistake, if you’re not willing to hear no, you are not going to get what you want. So, that has to be part of the equation and that’s why addressing the our stories around scarcity and what we deserve, that’s the foundational, psychological work here and that’s great work to do with a coach and you can lean on your sisters. Ask people to pump you up. What you want, there’s a reason you want it and it’s a good reason and it doesn’t even need to be a good reason to anybody else or even to your own head but I really think that our innate wisdom gets summarized and comes in the form of our desire and so when we go with our desire, it’s going to steer us in the right direction. Like just with my back pain, I just wanted to not be in pain anymore and I was beyond… There was nothing else I could do at that point. I didn’t think that it was going to lead me here. I had no idea but this ended up being exactly the right place for me. It’s got to trust the process.
Noa Ries:
Totally. Well, that is a perfect spot to end. Thank you for [inaudible 00:52:34] to everyone’s questions but there was a lot in there. We’ll actually post the questions in the platform because to your point, Caneel, we have an incredible well of wisdom in this community of which Caneel is a part and we can all pump each other up and answer those questions together in the community. Also, feel free to reach out and connect with Caneel. Her details, her website are listed in the platform. Caneel, thank you so much. My big take away is get to a whole body yes. I think that’s the quotable for me. Thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for your time today. A reminder to step up, ask for what you want and be willing to accept a no but give yourself permission to ask for what you want.
Caneel Joyce:
Yeah. Thank you everyone for coming and what great questions all. I’ll look through these and see if I can address anything on the platform and yeah, feel free to ping me there if ever things come up and I’ll do my best to support you, however I can and if you’re not going to ask for what you want for you, because you don’t deserve it and you’re not convinced of that yet, that’s fine. Please do it for everyone else on this call. When you succeed, we succeed. We are all in this together.
Noa Ries:
Yes absolutely. Thank you. We’ll see you all next time.
Kim Havens:
Bye bye.
